[SOLVED] Detail material blending

[Rob]

I feel like the blending of detail materials isnt working the way it should, I tried multiple things to make the detail materials of my terrain look good but I fail to succeed at this

Everything thats created lacks detail and has this generated and flat feel to it because it blends with the diffuse of the terrain, imo it would be much better if the detail materials wouldnt blend because this way you can have much more color in your detail materials and everything would look much better.

 

In the first image you can see an example of some tests I did

In the example you can see on the right the detail material painted with a white diffuse color, this way it doesnt blend with a different color and keeps its own colors and it looks natural, on the right you see the same image blended with a brown diffuse color and it looks very bad because all the colors are blended witht he brown, I tried multiple things like working with more black and white on detail materials but this way you end up with the same detail but just in another tone while you want more vibrant colors

 

The second image shows the terrain from the terrain tutorial and the current terrain sample (left - tutorial, right - current terrain)

Correct me if im wrong but the terrain from the tutorial looks like it was created without the strange detail material blending and looks much more natural than the current terrain sample

If the terrain from the tutorial was made with the blending I definately would love to see the files

 

Im not bashing the detail material blending system as its very flexible in certain situations such as grass but as were trying to create a desert environment we need much more color in the terrain as it wont be covered up by grass or anything

 

Would it be possible to turn off the blending? Or maybe change the way it works with the alpha channel of the masks? Maybe 100% white = no blending and everything below that it will blend?

[alexei.garbuzenko]

First of all, terrain diffuse texture is multiplied by material textures, meaning that 100% white terrain diffuse map would preserve material colors as is. Second, blending even two different materials means that each material's color intensivity is divided by two, so for best look you need to make sure that terrain mask for particular tile contain only one material, but not 3-4 blended meterials, i.e. RGBA value (1,0,0,0) instead of (0.8, 0.5, 0.1, 0.3).

 

For our project we decided to use completelly different approach that is used in CryEngine and some other engines - all materials are desaturated (converted to black and white) and color is specified only in terrain diffuse map. That gives better look but now in single terrain tile (about 1x1 yards) we can have only one color with brightness variations, meaning there could be no flowers on the grass, etc.

[Rob]

First of all, terrain diffuse texture is multiplied by material textures, meaning that 100% white terrain diffuse map would preserve material colors as is. Second, blending even two different materials means that each material's color intensivity is divided by two, so for best look you need to make sure that terrain mask for particular tile contain only one material, but not 3-4 blended meterials, i.e. RGBA value (1,0,0,0) instead of (0.8, 0.5, 0.1, 0.3).

 

For our project we decided to use completelly different approach that is used in CryEngine and some other engines - all materials are desaturated (converted to black and white) and color is specified only in terrain diffuse map. That gives better look but now in single terrain tile (about 1x1 yards) we can have only one color with brightness variations, meaning there could be no flowers on the grass, etc.

 

Thanks for the reply, this is very usefull information

I just tried a black/white texture with a x2 brightness on the terrain and it looks much better, still have to try a lot of things with adding colors to get more variation but atleast I know now how it is multiplied so this makes things much easier

[manguste]

The second image shows the terrain from the terrain tutorial and the current terrain sample (left - tutorial, right - current terrain)

Correct me if im wrong but the terrain from the tutorial looks like it was created without the strange detail material blending and looks much more natural than the current terrain sample

If the terrain from the tutorial was made with the blending I definately would love to see the files

 

Nope, these are blended detail materials all right. The trick is to plan the colors beforehand and use the terrain diffuse texture for color and grayscale (or desaturated) detail textures, just like Alexei advised.

• If the detail color value = 127, it has no affect and only terrain diffuse color is used;
  
• If 256, then the terrain will be white;
  
• If 0, the terrain will be black.
  

Good news is there's a new "Overlap" mode added for detail materials. It specifies if the detail material is simply drawn above the terrain instead of being blended with the diffuse color. It will be available in the next update.

[Rob]

 

Nope, these are blended detail materials all right. The trick is to plan the colors beforehand and use the terrain diffuse texture for color and grayscale (or desaturated) detail textures, just like Alexei advised.

• If the detail color value = 127, it has no affect and only terrain diffuse color is used;
  
• If 256, then the terrain will be white;
  
• If 0, the terrain will be black.
  

Good news is there's a new "Overlap" mode added for detail materials. It specifies if the detail material is simply drawn above the terrain instead of being blended with the diffuse color. It will be available in the next update.

 

 

Ye ive been experimenting with the colors like Alexei advised and have gotten better results, but the new overlap mode sounds great! Cant wait to get my hands on that!

[manguste]

Second, blending even two different materials means that each material's color intensivity is divided by two, so for best look you need to make sure that terrain mask for particular tile contain only one material, but not 3-4 blended meterials, i.e. RGBA value (1,0,0,0) instead of (0.8, 0.5, 0.1, 0.3).

Alexei, I can't agree with you here. The resulting color is calculated according to the following formula:

 

resulting_color = diffuse_color + (detail_color * 2 - 1) * detail_scale

(That's why white detail results in pure white, and black in pure black.)

 

But if there are two detail materials, color intensity is not decreased, it's increased! You'll get higher contrast result, with burnt colors (darker and whiter).

It's Ok to use two detail materials in one location as long as they are greyish to start. For example, you can try to adjust the midpoint in Photoshop Levels (for RGB and per-channel as well).

[alexei.garbuzenko]

Alexei, I can't agree with you here. The resulting color is calculated according to the following formula:

 

resulting_color = diffuse_color + (detail_color * 2 - 1) * detail_scale

(That's why white detail results in pure white, and black in pure black.)

 

But if there are two detail materials, color intensity is not decreased, it's increased! You'll get higher contrast result, with burnt colors (darker and whiter).

It's Ok to use two detail materials in one location as long as they are greyish to start. For example, you can try to adjust the midpoint in Photoshop Levels (for RGB and per-channel as well).

 

I see your point and agree with formula provided. But from artists perspective mixing 3 different materials (even with Color Burn blending) gives garbage, not 'grass with sand and rocks'. Some kind of mask blending is needed to get meaningful results in such case so I'd recommend terrain painters to avoid mixing at all, except for transitions from one material to another.

In real world it is fun to mix red, green and blue paints - you'll get some weird khaki color instead of black or gray, or even white. Same applies to mixing different terrain textures.

 

p.s. Of course there could be some exceptions alike 'mossy road' effect with mixing road and grass.

[manguste]

Ok, now I see what you're getting at :) I've added info with pics into docs to make the situation with detail materials more transparent.

[Rob]

Nice documentation! Any idea when the new blend modes will be available for us?

[manguste]

They are already implemented, so as soon as the next update is released :)

[alexei.garbuzenko]

That sounds for me as 'on-line documentation is not for actual, but for future release that you'll see in several months'..

[manguste]

Sarcasm sign?.. There are tips for the current blended mode (overlay), so if anyone will find them helpful right now, why not have them in online docs. I don't see a problem here.

[alexei.garbuzenko]

It's always disappointing to found some feature in the manual and then realize it is not available in current or even beta software. I'd suggest to hide non-actual parts or mark them as 'In development'.

 

Just imagine that you came to market and all prices have 50-90% discount. You fill your cart with goodies and then black checkout guy tells you `No way, lad! Discounts 'r for next month, cam bak later`. :huh:

(nothing personal, just an imagination : )